Curse

Beat_Go_Stick · Oct 27, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

...words words words...

Well said. I haven't played in months but this patch has made me want to test the waters again. I look forward to seeing some old timers in-game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox Reeveheart

How the heck can Anet make things like white dye drop only so players can set the price themselves and nerf farming even more!? I have become slowly more and more tired of this game. But now its just... ugh. my only livelihood is gone... all i have left is jade arena farming or w/e its called left but my comp overheats and stuff when i go in there so scratch that out too

what do i do for cash now? AND DONT TELL ME YOU GET ENOUGH CASH THROUGHOUT THE STORY BECAUSE YOU DONT! I know I played through prophecies 5-6 times and factions twice!!! you get about 10-15k total in prophecies but you spend that on keeping up to date with armor and such, not to mention the big sink at drognars.

Are you nuts? I didn't farm at all (until I got bored beating the game again and again) and never wanted for money in Prophecies (of course, Factions was exactly the opposite but I won't go into that

). You should have been harvesting the little 15g white items you found for materials. I never had to buy materials at Droks. It was 6k for armor for each character (equivalent helmets could be obtained in the desert).

6k per character is nothing. Just because you didn't explore the possibilities of the game doesn't mean that the capability wasn't there. Each and every single one of us started out poor, you know. Some of us complained about it and usually stayed poor. Others of us watched the economy, learned the flow of the game, played through the quests, avoided unnecessary money sinks, and ended up wealthy at the end with little to no farming. I had over 160k before I ever started farming just by playing the market with the items I naturally found.

Now I don't know if you rushed through the game, avoided side quests, didn't salvage white items, didn't sell 200g items for 500-1k, or what. But I do know that asking A.Net to put a halt on AI improvements just so you can make a few gold without having to think while you do it is pretty silly.

Give it a couple months, as someone said earlier in the thread, and you will see tons of solo farming builds pop up. Where you see tedium, other inventive players see opportunity and challenge. Just wait for it and you can reap the rewards of their fun just like before

x64600 · Nov 30, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

My 2 cents. Maybe this has already been said. This is my take on the situation.

Some people assume this AI update will hurt the gold farming companies which sell gold causing them to raise their prices. This assumption could not be more wrong. They will simply adapt their tactics, & work in groups. The gold selling companies have camps of workers. They do not have to work solo. They are not stupid. Never underestimate people who get paid to play video games.

As has been said before what this AI update will do in fact is encourage MORE players to buy gold rather then farm it on their own. You think the gold selling companies are upset? Maybe at first but in the long run after they realize their getting more business they will be cheering the loudest.

I wonder if Anet is making a profit under the table from this? Maybe I am a bit paranoid but I do not see the logic in forcing more players to buy gold.

So the demographic of solo players gets nerfed. So what. Anti social loners need to suffer more. To bad we can not detect them at birth so we can drown them before they give us all a headache with the whining.

I am just kidding though. I am one of those anti social loners that prefers to solo because morons in groups tend to get me killed.

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 30, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38

A Guildie and I wondered what effects this would have on ebay gold prices, so we checked the 1st week of Nightfall. They were about $80-90 per 1000K, we checked again last night and they had fallen to $50-60. The same as they were towards the end of factions.

In short the AI changes have done nothing to force the price of gold up,only seemingly increasing demands for it

jackie · Nov 30, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

True.

Ebay subculture ends when Anet shutdowns it's servers. More players buy ebay money now than ever.

Personally I didn't care so much of how the AI update changed farming. What hit me was that Guild Wars changed so much in many other ways as well. Running, enemy chases around map even if you have speed boost, AoE dmg behavior is weird, enemy caster behavior, etc.

I'm so totally used to the old AI that now everything feels weird and pushes me away from the game. Takes some time from me to get used to the new system.

Alya · Nov 30, 2006, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Unfortunately we still haven't heard from Anet.

Does really the current AI work "as intended"? (despite the numerous evidence showing that actually the AI is broken; for example see the topic "Yet More AI Strangeness" on GW Online, which takes 34 pages:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=428162).

Will this issue be addressed?

I am sure that many players would appreciate if Ms Gray stepped up and clarified the Anet position on the current AI. Her last posting was made on November 11, i.e. 19 days ago. Sadly, she was silent after that.

Quote:

"Don't worry, the designers know about this thread, and other similar threads. They'll appraise the comments, the reports, and the movie and I'll share their comments after they've had time to do all that. It's Friday, and they've been swamped with other issues, but I know they'll attend to this soon.

Thanks for your patience."

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...&postcount=254

Wtf Its A Monk · Nov 30, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

yea i think that a little clarification is in order.......i hope that we get some info soon

WasAGuest · Nov 30, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

What I'm suprised with is not only the lack of a response, but a lack of a fix already. The player base can tell the AI is broken; every time even one of the Anet worshipers steps up to say how much they love the new (broken) AI, they also state it's possible to work around it... question is, why are we having to work around a broken system?

Anet is releasing the Elite mission now? My question is why? If we can get into the elite mission, will the AI still be set for circus clown mode, or will we finally get a fight on our hands? Will the AI still ignore the aggro bubble? Will the AI still forever and instantly chase the monks in circles*? AI should have been fixed long before they even considered releasing the elite mission, at least IMO... so now we get to enter the elite mission and watch the AI pretend to be in a circus?

* For those saying insta-aggro on the monks makes since; consider the stupidity of the AI first. When a PvPer targets the monk does the monk know he/she is the target before or after they are hit? The AI knows and begins it's flee script the second it is called as a target; or as the heroes and henchies do, they start running in infi-circles before even taking a hit. When a PvPer chases a monk, do they eventually have enough smarts to adapt and change targets to something they can actually hit? The AI doesn't have this ability to adapt and therefore is stuck in perma-chase. Lastly, this is PvE, not PvP - stop trying to force the crap PvP tag like game down the PvEers throats. We want powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag.

All this current AI has done is made the game less fun and massively annoying. There's no adapting to something that is simply no fun; so before some poor clueless individual says "adapt and get better"; I ask, "Why are the players being forced to adapt to something that is clearly broken and less fun than it used to be?" : As I said before we want: powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag.

Wtf Its A Monk · Nov 30, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Very well put.....i agree 100% with you WasAGuest....lets just hope that Anet sees the light

so far it looks like they havent

it seems to me that anet wanted to stop people from playing alone and encourage team play (as stated in many peoples posts)....but what about the people that enjoy the challenge of going out on their own to make money and solo. i think that it is unfair to punish those people for using skills that let them solo. seems like anet wants everyone in the game to have an even playing field and for everyone to be equal but without the competition of soloing and getting the best overpriced items guildwars is no different than a regular RPG. MMOs are supposed to have competition but with the way Anet is pushing it, it seems that they want us to go through the storyline(even that is hard with the AI running around like a bunch of idiots on speed) and be done with the game other than PvP. PvErs will always find a way to farm regardless of how horribly mangled the AI is. So why even try and stop thing that gives some players the most satisfaction.

I guess the question is.....Will Anet's desire to destroy the solo aspect of the game also destroy the rest of the game play in PvE as well?

Silent Coyote · Nov 30, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

I just want them to fix it so hench and heros will attack called targets, because so far they have ignored every call I have given them for at least the past two weeks.

Thallandor · Nov 30, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

The more i play the more pissed off i get at the game....something is wrong.

Zeph · Nov 30, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

What I'm suprised with is not only the lack of a response, but a lack of a fix already. The player base can tell the AI is broken; every time even one of the Anet worshipers steps up to say how much they love the new (broken) AI, they also state it's possible to work around it... question is, why are we having to work around a broken system?

Anet is releasing the Elite mission now? My question is why? If we can get into the elite mission, will the AI still be set for circus clown mode, or will we finally get a fight on our hands? Will the AI still ignore the aggro bubble? Will the AI still forever and instantly chase the monks in circles*? AI should have been fixed long before they even considered releasing the elite mission, at least IMO... so now we get to enter the elite mission and watch the AI pretend to be in a circus?

* For those saying insta-aggro on the monks makes since; consider the stupidity of the AI first. When a PvPer targets the monk does the monk know he/she is the target before or after they are hit? The AI knows and begins it's flee script the second it is called as a target; or as the heroes and henchies do, they start running in infi-circles before even taking a hit. When a PvPer chases a monk, do they eventually have enough smarts to adapt and change targets to something they can actually hit? The AI doesn't have this ability to adapt and therefore is stuck in perma-chase. Lastly, this is PvE, not PvP - stop trying to force the crap PvP tag like game down the PvEers throats. We want powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag.

All this current AI has done is made the game less fun and massively annoying. There's no adapting to something that is simply no fun; so before some poor clueless individual says "adapt and get better"; I ask, "Why are the players being forced to adapt to something that is clearly broken and less fun than it used to be?" : As I said before we want: powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

The more i play the more pissed off i get at the game....something is wrong.

I totally agree with these 2 posts. Anet have made a right mess of the AI, no way at all can it be called "improved". If they were aiming at trying to stop ebay gold sellers then the gold sellers must be laughing their heads off. All Anet has done is INCREASE the demand for ebay gold because a big section of players either 1) cannot be bothered trying to earn gold (the proper way) because fighting with this new AI is damn frustrating or 2) simply do not have the time because even simple runs where a player could make a few plat now take so much longer.

Come on Anet, sort it out before people start quiting the game through frustration.

ricoboom · Nov 30, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oh a GW forum

Farming was monotnous and tedius already, I can't bear spending 10x more time and effort on the same exact run with the same reward...

I don't like Pvp, pve was why I played this game. Apparantly that's not good enough for Anet? I'm really sick of having anet spit in the face of pvers. I think I'll start looking into WoW.

WoW is all about farming,
- it is farming avery day, every night

you need at least 30-40 days to get to 60 lvl cap, AND THEN real farming/grinding starts,
with good guild (and there alot of crap guilds, and only 1-3 good on each server),
farming MC and ZG to get gear for all guild (and all members of the guild need good gear you know

) will take 1-3 months,
you need good gear for next level of elite Area - AQ,
AQ is very hard even with good gear, farming it will take alot (i didnt even did it

) )
then, after AQ there another elite area added several months ago
and in january they will introduce "burning crusade",

to find FINiSH in WoW you need to play ~6-12 month of farming

i have played WoW alot, but i will never return, because i know that getting to the end will take alot of my life

.. but WoW and PvP in WoW is fun, i think it is more exciting then GvG in GW, just imagine 40 vs 40 battle

Myria · Nov 30, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by x64600

Some people assume this AI update will hurt the gold farming companies which sell gold causing them to raise their prices. This assumption could not be more wrong. They will simply adapt their tactics, & work in groups.

The vast bulk of the changes there's ever been to the game can rather easily and clearly be tied back to either PvP "skill balancing" or anti-farming. The latter has generally been assumed to be a function of Anet's presumed war on the bot farms and Ebay gold. Unfortunately this assumption really doesn't make a lot of sense. Anti-farming measures are invariably a sledgehammer that hits regular players far harder than bot farms, who will, as you note, simply change tactics. They have force of numbers and time on their hands, the only way to stop them from getting gold is to close all of their accounts -- something Anet is clearly unwilling or incapable of doing -- or remove drops from the game. In the end most of the anti-farming 'nerfs' are arguably to the bot farms' benefit. It may slow them down, but it slows down the average player a lot more. As it becomes harder for regular players to get gold, it becomes more tempting to eBay it.

None of this is exactly rocket science, one presumes that Anet/NCsoft is well aware of the end-effects of their efforts. Given that, it would seem wise to re-evaluate the original premise. Are the anti-farming changes aimed strictly, or even primarily, at the bot farms?

Anet's model produces an unusual, perhaps even unique, disincentive. If I play a pay-to-play MMO, the company making that MMO has every incentive to try to get me to play as long as possible -- if I stop playing, I stop paying. GW's model is the exact opposite. Anet/NCsoft got all of their money up front, every moment I play costs them some of that money. The less I play, the more money they make off of that particular sale of the game. Somewhere out there, and I've no doubt Anet knows exactly where, is a line whereby if you play that long you actually start costing them money. They have an incentive to see that I play as little as possible, and a strong incentive to see that I don't play so long that I cross that break-even point -- or even really come close to it. They have to balance all of that against the need, if they're to survive, of making sure the customer feels like they got their money's worth and the possibility of future sales, but overall they have a strong disincentive to encourage long-term play.

Farming takes time, lots of it. Farmers on these forums routinely talk about farming 3+ hours per day. The average player doesn't farm much, if at all -- hell, the average player probably never even finishes the storyline. Farmers have a bad rep in some more socialistically-minded circles, and then there's always the ever convenient anti-bot farm excuse to fall back on. All in all, farming is the low-hanging fruit of the customer-who-plays-lots tree, trimming those branches is not likely to negatively impact Anet/NCsoft's bottom line and it probably would improve it in the long run.

If indeed all of the anti-farming changes are an attempt to get the bot farms then Anet is, quite frankly, a whole lot dimmer than I give them credit for. If instead their purpose is to minimize farming in general, in part in an effort to try and minimize the amount of time some players play, then things start to make more sense.

People invariably act in their percieved best interest, the often difficult trick is to discern what it is they percieve as their best interest. Companies, too, act in their percieved best interest, but there the nature of their percieved best interest is generally quite easy to discern. Examine Anet/NCsoft's clear and obvious best interest and I think the reason for many of the changes this game has seen are pretty clear.

Blackest Rose · Nov 30, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

Come on Anet, sort it out before people start quiting the game through frustration.

Too late for me - I used to play an hour or two everyday and quite a bit on the weekends. It was really the only game I played.

I haven't played GW for 3/4 weeks now....and I'm not missing it as much as I thought I would. It's amazing that such a great chapter like Nightfall can be marred by this stupid update.

The AI update has completely ruined it for me.
Nerf FUN! FTL.

I only keep up on the forums to see if Anet has come to their senses yet and actually fixed the AI.
I'm not asking that we revert back to what it was but for the AI to actually make sense again.
What we have today is NOT what is documented in the patch update notes.

F*** it's what's "intended" - it's just not FUN

I'll give it a whirl after the december update but if they give me reconnects, improved trade, hairstylists, armor inv, key inv, dye inv and 1000 plat - it's still not enough to make me come back to actually play this damn game again.

Game is fundamentally broke right now ..... fix it Anet!

Young Hero · Nov 30, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

I'am also done-driven away by never ending FUN nerfs.

I think this thread sums everything up
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10071356

and these words from Gaile herself seal the deal for me-

"The key AI change on 10/25/06 that some players are finding somewhat annoying is the fact that melee monsters now back off. That is new; that is intended; that won't be changing."

Keywords being-"that won't be changing"
Nice job on killing fun and loosing another customer

ValaOfTheFens · Nov 30, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

The New AI isn't that bad. I've adapted my strategy and moved onto actually playing NF. Its pretty funny when my Heros and I are pounding away at a guy and then just when I think we've defeated the mob there's one guy behind us doing nothing at all!! Sometimes this monster will be fully aggroed yet not attack and in some cases will walk off without attacking. *lol* If anything the new AI works in our favor. I was fighting a mob of Heket yesterday and there was a mass of them towards the middle(there about 12 in all) that were just standing there getting pounded. Weird but fortuitous.

ricoboom · Nov 30, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

hm why can't anet just seperate the pvpers and pvers? maybe they can make a skill work differently in pvp than pve? some ppl like me just will never ever pvp. pvp is extremely annoying for us

we can even stand one sec of pvping

?

they did you know ?
PR and PvP chars :/

Apharot · Nov 30, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I'm amazed at the lack of maturity I'm seeing in a lot of posts here. You pay, what, $40 for a game and play for free after that? How much is a WoW account? How much was Asheron's call per month? Everquest? You pay $40, get way the heck more than you would for $40 bucks worth of everquest time, etc. So the game is a little flawed. I'll remind you that you're playing for free. So they are fighting farmers. Good, I say! Fight the runners that are running low levels to places they can't get on their own. Seriously, quit whinning about something you are basically getting for free. While I'm at it, the person who said it's in Anet's best interest to get you off the server...least thought out post ever. Doing that would kill them, as no one would come to play.

Seriously, let's put a little thought into things before we fly off the handle.

gobla · Nov 30, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jugalator

Look into WoW if you think farming was already monotonous while the farm builds was working?
Wow, I think you've seriously misunderstood what WoW is all about!

Being an ex-WoW player I must say that WoW has FAR better Farming options then GW had.

WoW had an excellent split between solo play and team play. Solo play was easy to do and quite fun, you could go out at any time and just kill a few mobs in a relaxed way while doing some quests and making some money while chatting to your guild. It was quite enjoyable. Team play took a long time wich was bad but It was challenging, rewarding and quite fun. Say what you want about WoW, but you can not deny that it IS a great game ( even though you may not like it yourself. ) and has excellent solo and teamplay. The only problem of WoW lies in that raid equipment makes your character GOD and you simply cannot compete without it.

Pre-Nightfall Guild Wars had this excellent split as well. You could just do a relaxed troll run and get some some money wich could be used to buy new skills, armor or weapons and at the meantime have a good conversation with guildies. And Teamplay was fun and rewarding. 5man FoW and B/P Tombs runs were very enjoyable and rewarding. Missions required a good amount of coordination and skill and were very challenging. The Title System made it worth doing the bonus.

Now After Nightfall this balance is completely and utterly destroyed. Soloplay was utterly destroyed by the Improved Monster AI. Sure, it can still be done but it's no longer relaxed and enjoyable. It's now long, tensy, stressfull and simply no fun. Teamplay was utterly destroyed by heroes, why take a mesmer or ranger if you can have a hero who can interupt 1/8 cast time skills? Why take a normal monk if you have a hero who never overheals and has a 0,000000001 second reaction time? Why take a warrior who may just turn out to be a Mending-Frenzy-Heal Sig Idiot if you have a hero with the perfect build? This goes for every single class in the game. Mission outposts currently only include 2 party sizes: 4man ( player and 3 heroes ) and 8man ( player, 3 heroes and 4 henchies or another player and 3 heroes. ) Heroes were supposed to fix having to look for a character for an hour, but for those of us who actually wish to enjoy the online aspect of this game it now takes a whole lot longer ( and that's coming from a monk, I can't imagine how it must be for other classes. )

In Prophecies I remember the good days in Wich every single outpost had LFG *Insert Random Quest Here* Spam, all of that now seems to have become WTB/WTS spam. Now I actually HATE questing, It's practically Impossible to find a party for random quests. And Henching is just soo dreadfully boring. It's simply too perfect, they never make mistakes if you play it right. What's the challenge in that? In a real party you have to devise strategies to hard encounters, you have to adapt to your team members so you work in perfect unison and together you have to cover each others mistakes.

Guild Wars Currently is mostly a MultiHenchman Offline Role Playing Game

Blackest Rose · Nov 30, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

Examine Anet/NCsoft's clear and obvious best interest and I think the reason for many of the changes this game has seen are pretty clear.

Very well thought out post Myria (as compared to my heated rant

)but can you explain the quoted above. I'm afraid I don't follow.

I would have thought that it was in Anet's interest to attract as many players as possible to the game.
Different people like to do different things : PVP, PVE missions and quests, farm, FF etc.

The only way I could see the AI update working in Anets favor is if they have worked out that they will attract/keep more players that they have currently by changing the AI to what we have today rather than leave it the way it was.

Of course we don't know the sales figures and I for one don't think it's representative anyway since I had preordered 2 copies of Nightfall BEFORE the AI update.
Chapter 4 sales will be very interesting...